why Jesus is NOT Michael the archangel

Have you ever gotten inside someone’s head and then wondered, where in the world did you come up with that idea? It happens with my kids at times, but rarely with adults. This subject–the idea that the angel Michael and Jesus are the same–blew my mind. I mean, really, where in the Bible would you come up with that idea?

photo credit: russelljsmith via photopin cc
photo credit: russelljsmith via photopin cc

Yet this is a Jehovah’s Witness teaching that adherents strongly believe. It’s one of the things they don’t tell you on your doorstep, and no wonder. Anyone familiar with church teachings or the Bible would have a hard time with it. And for them, I think it’s more like a footnote. In the Watchtower’s book, What does the Bible really teach? [emphasis theirs], the subject is covered as one question of many in an appendix. So why am I covering it here, my friends? Because who we believe Jesus is, and how He relates to the Father, is the heart of our faith. The CHRISTian faith.

Teaching that Jesus was someone other than who He is was a problem the people of Corinth had. They strayed from what Paul taught, and believed some false “super-apostles” instead.

But I am afraid that just as the serpent deceived Eve by his treachery, your minds may be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus different from the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the one you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough! ~2 Corinthians 11:3-4

I don’t want to belabor it, but let me briefly summarize their view: Because archangel means “chief angel,” because the Bible only names one archangel, because in 1 Thess 4:16 the Bible says “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God…” because both Jesus and Michael are mentioned in Scripture as the leader of angels, and because people in the Bible were sometimes known by two names (Saul/Paul, Simon/Peter), they put all of these together to argue that Jesus must be Michael. That Jesus is His human name, but Michael is His heavenly name.

They do it, I think, to undermine the Trinity. If Jesus is just an angel, albeit the chief one, then he clearly isn’t God, right?

This subject isn’t new. Believers in the early church struggled with heavenly hierarchy too. The first chapter of the book of Hebrews teaches that Jesus is superior to the angels. In fact, in Hebrews 1:6, the Father commanded ALL the angels to worship His Son.

And if you look closely at Scripture related to the angel Michael, in Daniel 10:13, we see that Michael is really only “one of ” the leading princes/chief princes/chief angels/archangels, pick your translation. So if Michael is merely one of the chief angels/princes, then he clearly isn’t above all the angels, and clearly isn’t the one and only Son of God.

Another important difference between Jesus and Michael is that Michael could not rebuke Satan in His own power (Jude 9), while Jesus could and did (Matthew 4:10).

But I’m probably preaching to the choir here. I don’t think any of you reading this are confused about the Michael/Jesus controversy. If you are and want to read more, let me point you to a fantastic resource. A book I’m reading right now that I find very helpful and enlightening. Reasoning From The Scriptures with the Jehovah’s Witnesses by Ron Rhodes. 

So, why this post? Why these series of posts on the Trinity? 

Churches really don’t teach the Trinity much anymore, do they? It’s a hard topic, and it seems that hard topics are often out-of-fashion in our churches today where we are more focused on conversions than discipleship. You have to admire the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Their Sunday and Tuesday night gatherings focus on how to use Scripture to support their views. How to respond if someone challenges one of their beliefs. They are out there going door to door proclaiming what they believe while many of us aren’t even sure what we believe much less how to support it from Scripture.

I know I’m guilty of that. I wanted to take a class on the Trinity because I couldn’t understand how God could be 1 and 3 at the same time. I had the misconceived idea that God was sometimes the Father, sometimes the Son, at other times the Spirit, almost like He was a shapeshifter and took on different forms to suit His purpose. (I now know that this idea of the Trinity is called modalism, and was rejected by the church years and years and years ago). In truth, there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three different persons sharing the same divine nature, the “Godness” of God, what makes God divine. I won’t rehash that here, as I’ve posted on the topic before.

So I continue these posts hoping that someday they might help someone. I’m not afraid to talk to the JW’s. I don’t mind admitting that I don’t know something and then go and research it. Actually, that’s one of the things I like best (if you couldn’t tell). And I feel burdened to help these women that come to my door. I pray that something I might say will plant the seed to help them see the truth. I pray that the Holy Spirit will give me His words, because I know there is no argument I would make in my own power that will sway them. They are fully indoctrinated in their wayward theology. In fact, they go through two years of training and are tested before they can even be baptized. I can’t imagine.

So, reader, I think I got way off topic, or maybe not. Tell me, what do you do when JW’s or Mormons come to your door? Do you talk to them? To you feel the need to witness to them? Do you pretend like you’re not home? Don’t worry, I’ve done all of the above. I’m not going to judge you one way or the other. Do you think we should/should not try to convert them? Why?

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44 thoughts on “why Jesus is NOT Michael the archangel

  1. Some Mormans were making a regular stop to visit with my wife in the 90s when we lived in south Austin. She told them they needed to talk with me. So about their fifth visit, they caught me at home. After listening to their initial presentation, and bring up their belief that we are all going to be gods of our own worlds like Jesus, which they deflected with a refocusing on their main message, I said the following:

    So you’re telling me the Church lost the faith in the first couple of hundred years, and it remained lost until Joseph Smith found the book of Morman some 1800 years later, and if I read it, that I’ll experience a burning of my heart confirming the truth of it. Problem is, if I can’t trust the Holy Spirit to get it right the first time, why should I trust Him to have gotten it right with you guys this time?

    After a half-hearted restating of their points and not really answering the question, they left and never came back. I’m hoping I instilled enough doubt in their minds to rethink their position.

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    1. Mormons claim they believe in the Holy Spirit, but I’m not sure how much they do. For them, I think it’s more about works and obedience. My brother lives in Utah and has a friend that was raised Mormon. When he finally realized the truth, it put him off all religion. Once his original faith was derailed, he was unwilling to put faith in anything again. It’s sad, really.

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    2. This sounds like Christadelphians, they also say that Christianity is in error, trinity is not biblical, was brought about by Nicean council in 325 AD. We know Godhead consist of Father\Son and Holy Spirit, is it a triune God ? or one God acting in tree ? Their founder John Thomas has rediscovered the truth in the 1800’s, like all theologians then and now were\are wrong, but their views is correct. CD’s say Jesus is only son of God and Holy spirit is power of God. Why do we accept Nicean councils view ? John Thomas did not like the trinity but said in his book called phanerosis: that the ” Father is God and Jesus is God, because born of the spirit, equal in glory and power with the Father “, and refutes the trinity. So there is sect’s around who feel they know it all.

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  2. My daughter has been asking tons of questions lately about God, His vastness, the Trinity, and so on. It thrills me to no end, seeing her desire to grow in the Lord. But trying to explain things to a 9-yr-old that grown adults have a difficult time wrapping their brains around is quite a task. These posts have really been a God-send for me – they are definitely helping!

    Feeling burdened to help those women and not doing something about it would be wrong. And I am certain that no effort is fruitless, whether we see the results or not. Isaiah 55:11 “so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.”

    As for me, personally, I rarely have Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses at my door. When I do, it has always been bad timing, with no husband at home and a small child running amok. So I crack the door and send them away as quickly as possible – usually with a, “we are Christians & not interested & yes, I know you think you are Christians, too, but we very much disagree on that & I have to go, bye.”

    I think we all have our different gifts and our different burdens and so “should/should not convert” has a different approach depending. I am not gifted in thinking on my feet, so to speak. My strengths lie in listening, empathizing, and helping others. So I’m personally a strong believer in friendship/relational evangelism. But for those people who are, and whom God lays on their hearts to speak, they definitely should.

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    1. I’m glad you find the blog posts helpful, Sparks. That’s great that your daughter has so many questions. My oldest is the same age as yours. I write for another site, Samiesisters.com, that’s for tween girls. I think you might be familiar with it. I plan to write a series of posts for them for next year on the basics of our faith (like the Trinity) and how to defend it. I know you’re a writer, you might consider writing for them too. Or passing on your daughter’s questions. I’m sure she’s not the only one who has them.

      I think the best kind of evangelism is friendship/relational evangelism (aside from preaching in church, which I don’t do). I think your strengths of “listening, empathizing, and helping others” is just what you need to reach people. These women come back week after week to speak with me. We’re getting to know one another, and it’s my hope that spending this time with them will help me share the truth with them. Believe me, I haven’t had a snappy comeback to anything they’ve said. It’s always been, “I’m not really sure about that. I’ll have to research it and get back with you.”

      I think a lot of people (and I’m generalizing, not talking about you) feel like the best thing to do is not to talk to JW’s or Mormon’s at all. I wonder why?

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      1. I need to look more into Samiesisters.com. Because of my daughter’s dyslexia, her reading level at the moment is early 1st grade. But, of course, her comprehension is much better than that. Even though she can’t read the articles, she’d benefit from them. Sounds like a good mommy/daughter bonding opportunity. 🙂

        My theory is either 1) people aren’t comfortable &/or knowledgeable enough to defend their faith so they avoid the confrontation or 2) the whole “don’t expose yourself to evil or you might accidentally get sucked in” thing. Or a combination of the two – don’t expose yourself cause your scriptural knowledge isn’t enough and you’ll get seduced to the dark side.

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        1. You’re probably right with both theories. I have believed both 1&2 at some point in my life.

          You could read the Samie articles with your daughter. They have discussion questions at the end for you guys to discuss. 🙂

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        2. Those who are strong in their Faith do not have to worry when they have the True Faith. God call s people so perhaps He brings them in contact with people which are considered as evil but are no evil at all.

          The Jehovah Witnesses are people who really love the One God, Jehovah. There is no other God we should honour. The God of gods surely will be with them guiding them along the pastures. Many Christians could learn from them who really take on the task Jesus has given his followers. There are not many Christians who follow Jesus teachings and instructions like they do.

          You never know God uses them to bring you in contact with the Truth. Listen and discuss with them. Compare with your different Bible translations and study the Bible yourself regularly, trying to forget all the dogmatic teachings and just getting to the Words of God like they are really written there in the Book of books, black on white.

          Good luck with your quest for the Truth.
          May you find the Real and Only One Almighty God, Adonai Elohim Hashem Jehovah.

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  3. According to the Scriptures which we consider the Word of God, the Creator Who does not tell lies there is Only One god and Jeshua (Jesus Christ) is His “only begotten beloved son”. In the bible n at no place you shall find the word Trinity nor being written that Jesus is God or that God is Jesus. On the other hand you may find many Scritpural places where the difference between Jesus and God is explained or shown.

    At our sites you may find several connections or links to other sites where you can find more about the Trinity, Godhead, God and gods.

    We sincerely hope you shall come to know what the Nazarene Jew came to do, so that you shall give him the full respect he earns (which he does not when he is made God).

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    1. According to the Scriptures which we consider the Word of God, the Creator Who does not tell lies there is Only One god and Jeshua (Jesus Christ) is His “only begotten beloved son”.

      Thus, Jesus Christ has the exact same divine nature as the Father, just as my son is fully of the human nature as I am. Being His only begotten son makes Jesus Christ as fully god as the Father. Since the divine nature is perfect, creating perfect oneness in will and desire, there is only one God. The Trinity doesn’t make three separate gods. If it did, their nature would not be god, but created and changeable.

      To deny the concept of the Trinity, clearly proclaimed in Scripture, is to deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, just as fully as he is a son of man.

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        1. What would be the reason for God coming onto the earth so late in history?

          He came in the “fullness of time.” by God’s plan, it was not late, but exactly when He wanted it to happen.

          What could He proof by faking His death?

          He didn’t fake His death, nor did he need to prove anything. He really died, entered Hades, and defeated death so that we could live by coming back to life. For that to happen, He had to be both fully God, eternally begotten of the Father, and fully man, incarnate from the Virgin Mary.

          What would be the whole reason for putting up such a circus?

          No circus about it. Serious stuff, redeeming us from sin, death, and the grave. The reality of the Trinity is foundational to that happening. From your comments on the Trinity, it appears you don’t understand it, as you are fighting straw men. Me thinks you are not responding to the content of the post, but quoting talking points.

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      1. Being of the “same divine nature as the Father” does not make the person exactly the same person as the other, like you you say your “son is fully of the human nature as I am” but that does not make your son being you nor me, though we do have the same nature and even could be thinking the same thing are being united, that will not make us yet the same person.

        Like we in our ecclesia are one in union we are not all one and the same person. I with my children am one but nor my daughters nor my sons nor my wife are one person. In the same manner Jesus is in union with his Father, but he always be lower than his Father, to Whom he sits at His right hand, which indicates also clearly that he is not the same person.

        Jesus was made higher than angels but was lower than them before. Though God was, is and always shall be the Most High. God can not be lower than angels. God also can not be a mediator between Himself and somebody else, though Jesus is called the mediator between God and man. God also can not like we cannot abandon ourselves, leave Himself without Himself, though Jesus prayed to and cried unto his Father and not unto himself, which would make him a schizophrenic (would it not?).

        You say the divine nature is perfect and indicate that Jesus was totally perfect. So according to you he could not sin? This once again brings up the question what Jesus than could prove against the adversaries of God? A perfect divine body also can not die nor decompose so Jesus faked his death (because God can not die) and then did not give any proof to us that we can become resurrected after our body decayed when we died.
        As such you make the hope of resurrection for human beings worthless, because we can never become (totally) divine. Even my wife which I consider divine, either she must be God in a woman form (which I do not believe and certainly would not be so, because she even does not believe in Jehovah God.)
        So where leaves this comedy and foes of the Scriptures where is told that Jesus was tempted, but God can not be tempted, that God knows everything and does not tell lies but Jesus says the Father is greater than him and he can not do anything without Him and he can not tell who is going to sit next to him nor when the end times would come and even when he would be returning to the earth. As God knowing everything and than telling that he does not know when he himself would come back is telling lies, is it not?

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      2. “To deny the concept of the Trinity, clearly proclaimed in Scripture, is to deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, just as fully as he is a son of man.” is a very strange way of thinking.
        We just do believe that Jesus is the son of God and the son of man. It are those who say Jesus is God that are not accepting the words of God Himself Who says about Jesus that he is His son and that there is only One God Who is One (compare the many writings in the Old Testament)

        Nowhere in the Bible you will find the word Trinity or written that Jesus is The God or that The God of heaven and earth is Jesus.

        We still offer 1000 € for the person who can show us where the Holy Trinity is mentioned in the Holy Scriptures.

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    2. Christadelphians,

      Jesus is God. Like RL Copple explains, the Son of God must have the same nature as God the Father. As to the many reason the Bible says this is so, you can refer to one of my previous posts: http://lisagodfrees.com/2013/10/24/is-jesus-god-a-god-or-the-son-of-god-and-why-does-it-matter/

      And, as to the Trinity, Jesus clearly showed the importance of all three members when he told the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

      Jesus to His disciples: Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. ~Matthew 28:19.

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      1. You consider Jesus talks about three person, but God is Spirit (John 4:24) and can not seen by man or they would die. God is eternal and can not die, but also not be tempted, nor sin. Jesus was tempted many times, could sin but did not. He talks about his Father (who is greater than him) and prays to his Father, but that does not mean he and his Father are the same person. When you are united with your parents and feel one with your father or mother, for sure nobody will consider you being the same person?!

        The Spirit of God is very important but why should that have to mean that it is Jesus? Without your father and mother you would not be here on this earth, but that does not make you to be the same person as your parents.

        The Pharao and all highly placed persons, like kings were called god, which means ‘highly one’ and is a title. The name of the Most High God, Allah, the Elohim Hashem is Jehovah.

        Concerning ‘the Word’: The apostle John wanted to make the link to what happened in the Garden of Eden, where Jehovah gave His Word to provide a solution for the sin of the First Adam. This promise came fulfilled in the birth of the Second Adam (Jeshua/Jesus). The Word was the speaking of God, His Plan, which became reality. Jesus was the one who came in God’s name. Jesus was the sign of God who came on to this earth to witness about the Most High God of all, to whom Jesus also belongs, and to make God’s Name to be known. (Isaiah 7:14; Jeremiah 23: 5-6; Deuteronomy 18:18-19; John 12:13; 18:37; Hebrews 1:1-14; John 17:4-8)

        God, who is no liar said about the Nazarene “This is my beloved only begotten son”, plus said that those who would see God would die. (Exodus 33:20; Matthew 3:17, John 3:16; Matthew 10:23) How does it come that those who saw Christ, who was told to be the son of David and the son of man, did not die? God is also a ghost or spirit. (John4:24) while Jesus is a man of flesh and blood who showed is wounds to proof he was that human body been put on the stake to die, while God is eternal and can not die and is the God of gods for ever.(Genesis 17:1; Deuteronomy 10:17; 2 Samuel 22:32; Psalm 83:18; Markus 12:29; Isaiah 9:6;Exodus 20:3)

        God knows everything, but Jesus, who never claimed to God or doing the miracles by his own power, even did not know when he would be coming back. God is the Most High, who knows everything and can do everything.Jesus at first was even lower than the angels, but was taken out of death and made higher, to sit at the right hand of God to become the mediator between God and man. In case Jesus is God he would not sit next to Himself nor have a need of a mediator, because a person can not mediate between himself and an other. God is also not schizophrenic and can not be tempted, but Jesus was tempted many times and often prayed to his Father in heaven, even mentioning that he only wanted to do God’s Will and not his. (1 Peter 3;22; Ephesian 1:20-22; Philipians 2:9; John 5:22-23; Matthew 6:10; Luke 22:42; John 5:30)

        Some verses to consider:John 5:19; 8:40-45; 14:28; 1Corinthian 11:3; 15:28; John 20:17; Hebrew 2:9,1417; Galatians 4:4; Luke 1:30-35; 3:21-23; Acts 10:38

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        1. Hello there! I see that u r very vehemenant in what you believe. I like the fact that you list many verses to back up Ur claims, most do not take the time or r just saying what they’ve been taught, without study. You clearly r well versed, but not in truth. Yes, God is a spirit and no man has seen him. But we have seen manifestations of him. A cloud, a pillar of fire, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus is NOT God the father, he is God the son, both are Jehovah God. Separate yet one. Consider the original Hebrew: in the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. Elohim is literally Gods. Gods created the heavens/earth. The scripture is very clear to point out that there is only ONE God, so as not to support polytheism. At the same time, God is Elohim. Gods. God is also referred to as El and Eloah, God in singular form. He is El and Elohim, God and Gods. You are right that God can not be tempted. Phil 2:6,7 tells us that Jesus,’ being in the form of God, did not think it a thing to be held on to, to be equal with God, but MADE HIMSELF of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men.’ The next verse speaks of his obedience. Hebrews tells us He was MADE lower than the angels. All this is speaking of his human birth, coming into the world as a man. Did God make him of no reputation? Yes, but it was God the Son, not the Father. You seem to misunderstand or ignore that when we say Jesus is Jehovah God, he is the Son and not the Father. Seperate yet still fully one God, not two or exactly the same. I think perhaps this is something the mind can not fathum without the Spirit. God the father was greater because Jesus laid aside his divine equality (including authority) and became a mere man. That is what made him lower and the Father greater. As to his human nature, of course the Father was his God, he was not a man who was an atheist. Amazing how jesus is God and yet because of his humanity, he had a -THE- God he was subject to. How great is his love for us that he would lay aside his divine privileges for us and become a lowly servant!!! You state Jesus could sin but did not. Only God can not sin; if Jesus was a man without being God he would have sinned. Man can not NOT sin. It is in his Adamic being. But jesus was not just born of man but of God. The God Man, Emmanuel. No man in the history of men (and women) is without sin -because it’s his nature to sin -he can not help himself. (This is why Jesus had to die for humanity. Else all of humanity would be condemned. No one less than God could save us. God alone is our Saviour, Redeemer). Jesus did not only have the nature of man. Humanity was added to him, hence the temptation, the hunger, the weariness, and all other natural human experience. Because Jesus took on flesh he limited himself- that includes his knowledge. He had known everything about God but had to be taught about him from the scriptures from the time he was a child, remember? And the Spirit showed him truth and he grew in his knowledge. He was totally dependent upon the Father and is our living example. Ms Godfrees clearly states that God the Father is not Jesus; that is Modelism, oneness theology. The Godhead is three divine persons in ONE God.

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          1. Hi, Jesus Reigns! (He does indeed). Thank you for taking the time to comment. I agree with you completely, except on the final point.:

            You said “Ms Godfrees clearly states that God the Father is not Jesus; that is Modelism, oneness theology. The Godhead is three divine persons in ONE God.”

            God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three divine persons that together are ONE God. I am not a Modelist. 🙂 Jesus is a separate person from God the Father, in the sense that the Trinity is made of three persons. Just to clarify what I believe.

            You might check out these related posts:
            http://lisagodfrees.com/2013/10/24/is-jesus-god-a-god-or-the-son-of-god-and-why-does-it-matter/

            http://lisagodfrees.com/2013/11/07/are-the-members-of-the-trinity-co-equal/

            http://lisagodfrees.com/2014/01/23/why-the-trinity-is-not-polytheism/

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            1. Sorry I misspoke! I agree with your statement as well, I did not properly articulate what was in my mind. I have a way of doing that, lol. Great site, I will read those articles. I like that you have Christian Syfy on here as well. I love the original Star Wars (where in the world did those last three come from ? *cringe*) and you’ve renewed my interest again. Kind regards

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          2. Christadelphians will say that Elohim is mighty ones ” angels ” like I was told at their public bible lecture that mighty ones ‘ angels ” on Gods command helped God create the world and all things in it. Genesis 1v 26, they say that ” let us make human beings in our image, to be like ourselves” is referring to “angels ” not the plural Elohim. Yet they will skip v 27-” so God created human beings in his own image”. It is the way they understand and accept that bible verses differently then us Christians. And if you do not agree with them then you are judged to be ” astray from the Bible “. Sadly, regardless of what you say, they are always right.

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            1. It is truly God alone who shows anyone the truth of his word. I was in a cult once myself, so I know how they view all scriptures in another ‘light’. Thank God he delivered me from that bondage! Thank you EJK for the info, I have spoken with JWs but never a Christadelphian. It is a great point you make, the scriptures clearly say we are made in the image of God, not in the image of God and angels. Have a blessed day

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      2. did Jesus not show his wounds after he was resurrected to show his disciples it was really him and not a ghost, though God is a ghost Jesus was a man of flesh and blood who really suffered physically. God has not physical being.

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        1. That is a very good question. First let me say that I am not attacking you, tho it may seem like it. I was ‘on the other side’ once so I have an idea of how it is. Also, I do not know everything. There are things Im still learning and i expect that to continue until Im dead. I want you to know I really care for you, even tho I have never met you before. With that (and prayer that I can explain clearly and accurately): When Jesus showed himself to his disciples, they themselves believed they were seeing a spirit. But Jesus was very insistent that they touch him and see that he was in fact fully resurrected human -in his actual human body. This is important to remember and in fact is the very necessity of the believers ability to be redeemed, saved. Our entire faith rests on that very fact. The Father is not the Son. They are distinct persons, yet fully ONE God. Each is necessary to the Godhead. Tho they are distinct from one another, they are never not in perfect unity. Dt 6:4 in the Hebrew is literally translated “Jehovah our Gods (elohim) is Jehovah a unity.” Think about that. If Moses was talking about Elohim being angels, he would be declaring that the angels were Jehovah as well. Though elohim can and does mean angels at times, when used of God, it is for God himself. It is in the plural because he is made up of three persons. ‘Persons’ really is a lacking word in English, there really is no perfect word to describe the Godhead, Elohim. How can we really describe our God….he is truly indescribable. But we mere humans do our best. God the Father will always be a spirit. As long as we are in these mortal bodies, we will never be able to look upon him. The bible tells us that Jesus laid aside his equality in the Godhead and added on the nature of man (Phil 2:7,8). Nobody is equal to God accept God (Jer 10:6). This is what makes Jehovah taking on the nature of man so incredible, he truly is a God of love!!! Heb 2:17 says in regards to him taking on the nature of men (and NOT the nature of an angel), “Therefore in all things He had to be made like his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.” Before the world was even created, Christs coming to die for us was planned (1 Pt 1:20). It is amazing that Elohim, knowing we would fall, and yet still loving us, planned to redeem us from our own deserving condemnation by planning on dying for us before we even were created!!! In Colossians, Paul states that Jesus is the creator of all things. “For by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in the earth -stop right there a moment. ALL things that are in heaven and the earth? Thats everything. He created everything. In Isa 44:24 it says, “Thus saith Jehovah, your redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, I am Jehovah that makes all things; that stretches forth the heavens alone; that spreads abroad the earth by myself.” In Genesis we read, “In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.” “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” “So God created man in his image, in the image of God he created them” Jn 1:3, speaking of Jesus says, “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.” Ill repeat because this is such an amazing truth, ALL things were made by him and without him was not ANYTHING made that was made.” Jesus is God. I know, it is mind blowing. It is so crazy and yet so SANE. Can we figure out God? No. But he has given us some glimpses of him and He is utterly AMAZING. He is truly unique. Verse 4 of Jn 1 says, “In him was life, and the life was the light of men.” Yes, there is life in Jesus because he is God. God is life. “And the light shined in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not.” Without God revealing himself to us we can not see truth. We are in darkness. Jn 6:44 Jesus says “No man can come to me unless the Father which sent me draws him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” When Jesus confronted his disciples after the resurrection, they were amazed. After all they had seen, they should not have been! Thomas would not believe his resurrection (even tho he had told them). What does Thomas say after he touches Jesus’ wounds? “My Lord and My God.” What does Jesus say? Does he rebuke him for this? Does he say, dont call me God? Jn 20:29 “Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen me you have believed. Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet believe.”

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          1. Well said Jesus Reings, CD’s will never accept the view of christians, their founder didn’t accept the trinity but said that the Father was God and Jesus was God, because born of the spirit therefore God. Thomas call’s Jesus God, if Jesus was not God He would have rebuked Thomas. The scriptures could be manipulated by sect’s to prove that their version is correct. This is a sect above all sect’s, no one is correct except Christadelphians, if judged worthy by Christ, they will be rulers for 1000 years. I really do not get them at all, their thought’s seem higher then anyone elses, they will come up each time ” because we know what the scripture means” or else will quote prov.25:2

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          2. “god” is a tittle for a mighty one. As such we also find Pharaoh, Moses, the angels being called ‘god’ but they are not the Most High Divine Creator God. Jesus is a high person and is now made higher than the angels, though before he was lower. In case Jesus is god how could have he been lower than angels, and how can he and why would he later hand the Kingdom of God, over to God?

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            1. Christadelphians, I know you mean well, I know most of you are kind people, well versed, but not all your preaching is correct. You are always searching and trying hard to find fault in Christians. Sometimes even judging, but that’s ok because we Christians are guilty of that as well. The sad points are that your interpretation of the bible verses Christians and we do disagree in many places. You are so hell bend that you are 100% correct, but have many failed prophesies, guess work doesn’t cut it for me, CD Duncan Heaster say’s that he tried hard to prophesy about things which will happen in the future, but failed also miserably, he said: ” I was a false prophet “. Andy Walton so far has failed to deliver as well. You are stuck on trying to predict the return of Christ and the Kingdom of God on earth ruled from Jerusalem. We know when he comes back ” it will be done on earth as in heaven” Hey it maybe tomorrow, so try to be ready but stop making false prophesies. Your founder J.Thomas said that in 1866-68 when Christ supposed to have returned that:” Queen Victoria will lay her crown at the feet of the Lord”. In many places in the bible we see Jesus as God the Son: I will quote from KJV as most of you use that bible.
              Isaiah 7:14- ” behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” which means God with us.
              John 1:1-” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was GOD”
              The Word was Jesus.
              John 1:14- “and the was made flesh and dwelt among us”
              John 1:30- ” I and my Father are one”
              John 1:33- ” the Jews answered him, for the good work we stone thee not; but for the blasphemy; and because that thou being a man, makest thyself God.
              John 10:38- “…believe the works; that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in the Him”
              John 14:7- Christ answers Thomas- “if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
              John 14:9- Christ answers Philip- “…have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then Shew us the Father?”
              John 14:11-” believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me…”
              John 20:28-29-“…and Thomas said unto him, My Lord and My God” Jesus said unto him, Thomas because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and yet believed.
              Col 1:16-” for by him all things created…” ( by Jesus Christ)
              Col 2:9 -” For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily”
              1 Tim 3:16-” and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh justified in the Spirit…”
              Phil 2:6-” Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God”
              Also we can read right thru Hebrews 1,2,3 ( He created, He is Divine, He is God overall )
              May God bless you all

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            2. Hello Christadelphian! Good to hear from you again =)
              ‘god’ is literally translated god. Mighty is a word sometimes added to god in the Hebrew. There is only one true god; there are false gods; and there are gods in representation, not being. For the last, look by way of example at Exodus 4:15-17, where God is telling Moses to go before Pharaoh to deliver the Israelite’s. Moses was afraid to speak to Pharaoh, so God tells him to take Aaron as the ‘spokesman’. God then tells Moses: “And you shall speak to him (Aaron), and put words in his mouth and I will be with your mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what you shall do. And he shall be your spokesman to the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to you instead of a mouth, and you shall be to him instead of God. And you shall take this rod and with it you shall do signs.”
              So, God told Moses that He would tell Moses what to tell Aaron. Aaron was to be MOSES spokesman, though truly we see that he was Gods spokesman. God worded it this way because Moses was His representative, not Aaron. Aaron was only there for Moses. Then, God tells Moses to use a rod to perform signs with. Moses was NOT the one performing the signs by his own power, as tho he was in some way divine. God was doing it, but he was using Moses to prove that what Moses said was truly from God. Moses was the representative of the one true God and in this way, Moses was a god. Ex 6:28-7:1: “And it came to pass on the day when the LORD spake unto Moses in the land of Egypt that the Lord spoke to Moses saying, ‘I am the LORD: speak to Pharaoh King of Egypt all that I say to you’. And Moses said, ‘I am of uncircumcised lips, why should Pharaoh listen to me?’ And the LORD said to Moses, ‘See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother will be your prophet.’ How did God make Moses a god to Pharaoh? By bringing the plagues…which Moses did by the power of God, not by his own, but Moses was the representative performing those signs. Pharaoh asks Moses to ask his God to take away the plagues because he recognized the fact that Moses was a representative, a judge, an ambassador of the only true deity, YHWH. Angels are also representatives of God and are called gods in this way -not because they posses any deity, high or low. That is actually a belief rooted in Mythology. Whenever a man is called god, he is either gods delegate or he is called god in a mocking fashion, just as wooden idols are sometimes referred to as merely gods. Colossians 2:9 tells us that Jesus is divine, and not just a ‘lower’ divine, but that ALL the FULNESS of the Godhead dwells in him bodily. Godhead is theotes- it means deity, the state of being God. He is Equal in divinity, as he is God, the alpha and the omega. In Rev 1:17 Jesus says “I am the first and the last: I am he that lives and was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore.”
              In Isaiah 41:4 God says, “I am YHWH, the first and the last, I am he.” In Revelation 22 it is Jesus who says, “Behold I come quickly…I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last,” Vs 20 and he which testifies of these things says “Surely I come quickly” What does John say? ‘Even so, come Lord Jesus.’ Those titles all mean the same thing, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega. It means Jesus and God always were and always will be; they are eternal because they are Elohim.
              Where I am in the world it is after two in the morning…I have to get some sleep now! I will try to answer the rest tomorrow.

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              1. You ask, How could Jesus be lower than angels. In Hebrews 2 we read, “What is man that you are mindful of him, or the son of man that You take care of him? You have made him a little lower than the angels;” Here we see that man was created lower than the angels, yet God created mankind in his image and gave him dominion over the earth. This is something for which the angels stand in amazement. In verse 9 & 10 we read, “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God, should taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for him, for whom are ALL things and BY whom are ALL things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering…14Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared in the same, that through death he might destroy him who had power over death, this is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.” This is the heart of the gospel, the good news. Elohim, God the Word, took on flesh (manhood), to fulfill the law as a perfect sinless man, something no man could do. Jeremiah 17:9 says that mans heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Isaiah, when standing in the presence of the Most Holy God says, ‘Woe is me, for I am undone! I am a man of unclean lips’. Man is born dead (spiritually) in sin (Ps 51:5, Eph 2:1-5). Man is under the control of sin and the desires of his wicked heart. Without God drawing man to Himself, man will not seek out God (Rom 3:10-12). Since we are made in his image, we desire fellowship with a higher being naturally. We were created to worship Him, but sin has perverted us and thus we erect all those false idols, completely blinded to the One who is the only true God. Jesus was made lower than the angels when he was conceived in the womb of a woman. As man even in his perfect pre sin state was still made lower than the angels, so the Word added humanity to his deity and became lower than the angels. Jesus was made our propitiation for sin. The scriptures tell us that it was necessary for man to provide God with a blood sacrifice in order for his sins to be covered -not taken away, but covered (Heb10:1-4). The blood of animals could not take away mans sins, which is why there had to be sacrifices made year after year for sin. BUT since Jesus fulfilled the law, he was able to completely take away ones sin, “By whose will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily ministering and offering manytimes the same sacrifices which can NEVER take away sins: But this man (Jesus), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God…For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified”. This is why good works do not save a person, only faith in Jesus sacrificial atonement for our sins -something only Elohim could do. This is why the first law could not save…because man could not help but break it! The law says, Do not lie. Have you ever lied? If you have broken this commandment alone, you have become a transgressor of the law. “For whoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend (break it) in one point, he is Guilty of all”. This means you have broken the law in its entirety. You have sinned, and the wages of sin is death. The Old testament men and women had faith that God would sent the Messiah to redeem them, and we today look back at the Messiah to redeem us. The believers good works are a direct result of his faith. God gives the believer the will and the desire to live for Him.

                I have not personally studied Jesus handing over the Kingdom to God; I know it goes much deeper than what I will say, but that fact does not mean Jesus is not Elohim. When Elohim created the earth and mankind, he knew that mankind would sin and he and all of creation who need redemption. So it was then foreordained that the Son would become a man and redeem them and the world. This is done in part. After the 1,000 years the resurrection of the dead will occur and Satan and his emissaries will be thrown into the lake of fire. The earth will be purged and created as it once was. Redemption will be finished in its totality, the transaction completed in full (Eph1:10). It is after this that Jesus willingly hands the Kingdom to the Father. Is he not in subjection to the father now? The Son is always pleasing the Father and the Father is always pleasing the son. They are in perfect harmony, complete unity, one. Christs subjection then will simply be the completion of the mission he was set out to do, redemption. He will subject himself for the purpose of God being all in all. He will no longer need to be a mediator, but will always be our high priest. His manhood did not vanish, as some teach, else he could not function in that eternal position (Heb Ch 7). Jesus is not inferior by his subjection. A woman is not inferior to a man, but she has a different role and function. She is equally human, but her position is different. The Kingdom will not be ruled by God the Father alone, as though they are separate entities. Elohim will rule forever. There will be ONE King of Kings and Lord of Lords, not two. Heb 1:8 says, “Your throne O God is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom”. God is literally translated ho Theos, The God. In Ps 45:6,7 this is clearly referring to the coming Son and God here is translated Elohim. The NLT perverted this by saying God is your Throne. One only has to go to the Hebrew and Greek interlinear in both passages to see that this is incorrect. They did this purposely to hide the true meaning, because the true meaning goes against their doctrine. Elohim means gods, it it God’s name in plural form. ho Theos is God and Elohim is God.

                Elohim will rule on the throne forever and ever.

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  4. Excellent article! I might check out that book. I find JW teachings bizarre to say the least. One told me Jesus wasn’t crucified on a cross but on a stick. Say what???

    I think we should be concerned about them and share the gospel, but it will take a lot of prayer that they’re eyes will be opened to the truth of God’s Word.

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    1. Lots of prayer. They are so well indoctrinated. I’m beginning to see how all of their teachings seek to undermine Christ. You can’t claim to be Christian if you don’t believe the Son of God is God.

      Thanks for commenting, Susan. 🙂

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      1. the JW are right, Jesus was not put to death on a cross, because such a torture system was not used yet by the Romans at that time that Jesus lived. In the original writings you will also find “stake” and “wooden stake”

        They do give more honour to the death of Christ than the Trinitarians who take Jesus to be God. Because God can not die, but Jesus did really die for the sins of all people. The Trinitarians make a bagatelle of Jesus his ransom offer, while non-trinitarians do accept Jesus for what he really was and for what he really did, doing not his will but the Will of his Father.

        Luk 22:41-45 ALT And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and having placed the knees [fig., having knelt down], He began praying, (42) saying, “Father, if You are willing to take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours be done.” (43) Then an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. (44) And having been in agony, He was [even] more fervently praying. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling on the ground. (45) And having gotten up from the prayer, having come to the disciples, He found them sleeping from the sorrow.

        Was Jesus so schizophrenic he prayed to himself and also called to himself, asking why God had left him?

        Mat 27:45-46 ALT Then from the sixth hour [i.e., 12:00 noon] darkness came over all the land until the ninth hour [i.e., 3:00 p.m.]. (46) But about the ninth hour [i.e., 3:00 p.m.] Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying [in Aramaic], “‘Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?'” this is, “‘My God, My God, why did You abandon Me?'” [Psalm 22:1]

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      2. Being a Christian means being a follower of Christ. The Trinitarians are not following the Jew from Nazareth which is the one from the tribe of king David and who gave his life as a ransom for the sins of humankind. JW with many other non-trinitarian Christians do follow the teachings of Christ Jesus (Jeshua) and do believe he was honest and therefore did not tell lies. They also do what Jesus asked their disciples, to go out in the world and to preach the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of God. Of how many Trinitarians (Catholics or protestants) can this be said?

        Should somebody who claims to be following a master, really know the teachings of that master and should also not follow them?

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        1. Here we go ” because we know what the scripture means ” do you get that christadelphians, I have heard that many times, and what about you guys quoting from Proverbs 25:2-It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, to search out a matter is the glory of kings- and CD’s are the kings, because they know it all, you guys will be gathered at Mt,Sinai , will be judged by Christ, the worthy ones will be given eternal life and you will rule with Jesus for 1000 yrs in His Kingdom on earth, am I wrong ??? ” so higher then thou ” may the Lord bless you all .

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        2. Christadelphians, you say Christians are not following the Jew from Nazareth, can you then tell me since when has God has appointed CD’s as judges on earth to tell us that ?

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            1. My encounter with Christadelphians: First I must say that CD’s are full on bible students and they can rattle bible verses like there is no tomorrow, they will put most Christians to shame with their bible knowledge but unfortunately they attack Christianity as the wrong religion and only their version of explaining the bible is correct. I got to know CD group about 4 yrs ago when a member of my family got sucked in to their theological brainwashing. I wanted to listen what they had to say. Most are kind people but they have that aura of biblical superiority over outsiders\unbelievers. Unbeliever is a person who does not believe the way they do. And when you join\convert then you are in the TRUTH as they call it. I went to their church for sunday service and the preaching brother speaking that day said that CD’s should not and don’t welcome outsiders to their church, sorry “ecclesia” as they call it, because the service is special to CD’s, I was gobsmacked, I have never heard such a thing in any church that I have attended. But he finished by saying that an outsider will not be asked to leave. Well what a welcome, that puts you off straight away. They use KJV bible for church and study. About a year later my mum passed away and she was of Christian faith, an elderly CD man came close to me and said how sorry he was but because my mum was not a CD and in the TRUTH she will not be resurrected. This was the second error by CD’s. Then not long after that another person has asked me when am I going to convert because there is no salvation outside of christos. By that time I had enough, I started to have a look if this was a cult. Maybe they are not a cult but a sect with strong views that all past theologians and even now all Christianity is lost. I have discovered that John Thomas their founder by some miracle have found the truth all by himself. He published books which were copied from other writers and He claimed that his books were original and authentic, I suppose today he would have been dragged thru courts for copy rights. CD’s are always looking into middle east for signs to try to predict Christ return, and have many failed prophesies. The founder John Thomas was so up himself that He was thinking that He will be able to work out when Jesus will return, thus he said: “Jesus Christ will arise to His inheritance -Kingdom of God- in 1866-68, after JT died Mr. Robert Roberts took over the sect and he made exactly the same mistake. He calculated that Christ will reign on earth in 1910. That wasn’t enough. Prominent Australian CD CP Wauchope said: that Armageddon will happen in 1934. Another prominent book writer CD Mr.HP Mansfield claimed that the world lives in the very shadow of Christ’s second coming 1968, he again claimed in 1985 that Russian growt is a witness to the immenant return of Christ. Roger Stockes very well known CD said in 1987 that massive coming of nations together against Israel will devastate the Jews. In 1999 Woodville ecclesia in South Australia put an add in local paper that Turkey will capitulate to Russia and Russian forces will smash through Israel. And now CD Andy Walton in England is saying that Syrian civil war is the beginning of end time, that Christ will return soon. CD’s have more end time prophesies then JW’s but nothing stops them from guessing, Jesus said ” No one know the time except the Father” -” I will come like a thief in the night” so CD’s are hyped up each time there is some activity in the middle east and try to attach the events on to the Bible. Now I am convinced that they are false prophets.

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  5. EJK – Thank you for your comments. I hadn’t heard of the Christadelphians before they started replying to my blog posts. I agree with you that they seem to take a similar stand to the JWs. I’m not sure where their theology differs.

    Thank you for telling us about your experience. Is the member of your family that you mentioned still part of the CDs? I’m glad you weren’t converted. 🙂

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  6. Thanks Lisa, CD’s and JW are similar in many way’s except CD’s will say that Jesus is the son of God yet JW will say that Jesus is Michael the archangel and he existed from the beginning, CD’s on the other hand believe that Jesus the “WORD ” existed in God’s mind. Jesus only existed from his birth, and God has provided Him with wisdom and knowledge and Jesus was given the Godly power by the Father. They preach that all religions are wrong and they know the truth, because by this relentless bible study they are able to challenge Christianity in general that we are wrong. I am sure that all Christian theologians are not dumb, and most likely would have studied the bible diligently and cross examined the scripture as well as CD’s do, and would not lie to their followers. There is about 50000 Christos in the world, and they study the bible relentlessly and have their own understanding of the bible. If you become interested in them, they will slowly will destroy the belief you had and then by gentle preaching they will install their beliefs into your mind. And if you are a weak minded person you will fall in the trap. My family member is still involved with them. They will say that they only preach from the bible but as soon as you get baptised into their religion, out comes the books of JT, RR and HP Mansfield, Mr Henry Sulley and his book on Ezekiel Temple- Ezekiel Temple will be built and Jesus will perform animal sacrifices- I ask them, what does Heb.chapter 10 mean to them “…sacrifice of body of Jesus Christ once for all “. They hate catholic religion and call all other religions ” daughters of the w…., They said few things which made sense, such as satan\demon, evil thinking is within us, demon was mental illness and so on. But Jesus is not God and all Christianity is wrong. Strong belief is that they have been called out by God, miraculously they will be gathered at Mt,Sinai the ones which will be worthy will be given eternal life so they can rull with Jesus in his kingdom on earth as they see it. Unbaptised children and idiots ( mentally disturbed) will perish, where is that in the bible? all I know Jesus said ” let those children come to me…” It is a mind controlling , fundamentalist exclusive sect ” because we know what the scripture means”. They do not celebrate birth of Jesus, and easter as they see that pagan feasts. They attack nearly everything Christians do. Mr Thomas, the founder of CD’s did not like the word trinity, its not in the bible and He was correct, but His explanation of Godhead was: ” there are not three Gods in the Godhead, nor are there three in manifestation, nevertheless, the Father is God and Jesus is God, and we may add, so are the brethren of Jesus gods, and a multitude which no man can number. The Godhead is the homogeneous fountain of Deity, these other gods are the many streams which from this fountain flow. The springhead of Deity is one, not many. the streams as numerous as the orbs of universe, in which a manifestation of Deity may hitherto occurred” further he goes to say ” because born of the Spirit therefore God ( Jesus) because God is spirit, equal in glory and power with the father”. Holy Spirit is only power of God, and that does not exist anymore, has been taken away by God. Some christadelphians who have believed that Holy Spirit is around today, have been disfelowshiped from the sect. Some CD’s who have left the religion have become agnostic, very few have joined protestant churches. Anyone who is thinking to join this group should do a lot of research before joining. I can understand that trinity is a word used by Christianity, but Godhead is a better word as God ,Jesus and Holy Spirit is all one.
    you could find more information on : trutheternal.org
    christadelphian sceptics- history and mystery of christadelphians.
    CD’s don’t vote, serve in military forces or be a part of a jury in a court of law.
    They will not worship Jesus. Very few outsiders join CD’s.
    May God be with you.

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  7. More on Christadelphians: not long ago I have seen an article where the CD preacher said ” the coming of Messiah is rapidly drawing closer with the Syrian war, the methods being used by the most High, who rules in the kingdom of man, to put hooks into the jaws of Gog of the land of Magog and to draw him and his armies into the area of conflict, which we will see the Lord Jesus triumphant in all earth- then comes his bragging – very few people in the world are privileged to see these things as we see them, but the scripture is written in such a way, that a key of KNOWLEDGE is needed to unlock their secrets ” then he quotes prov.25:2 to say that CD’s are the kings who are able to interpret the bible and unlock the hidden truth. I see so much self elevation and gratification in this sect that is mind boggling.

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