Are the members of the Trinity co-equal?

iStock_000014594385MediumWell, if I were Phineas and Ferb, I’d say, “Yes, yes they are.” But that probably won’t satisfy you if you’re reading this post wanting to know the answer. So (deep breath) here it goes…

One of the sticking points that JW’s have with the concept of the Trinity is the co-equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They see God the Father as the one and only Almighty God, Jesus as God’s Son, and the Holy Spirit as God’s force. We’ve already covered those misconceptions in other posts, so let’s look for evidence in the Bible that the members of the Trinity are co-equal, and what, exactly, we mean by co-equal.

First things first, a definition: co-equal in the sense of the Trinity means “having precisely the same nature, attributes, and perfections” or “possessing equally all the attributes of deity.”

What does that mean, exactly? It means that the nature and attributes of God the Father are the same as those of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In other words, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same type of beings.

For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. ~2 Cor 3:17

The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven. ~Heb 1:3

But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)~ Romans 8:9

I know, it’s a hard concept. Perhaps this will help. Let’s consider marriage for a moment.

“At last!” the man exclaimed. “This one is bone from my bone, and flesh from my flesh! She will be called ‘woman,’ because she was taken from ‘man.’”

This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one. ~Gen 2:23-24

A husband and wife are both human. When they marry, they become “one” (Gen 2:24). Can you see it? God does nothing by accident. He could have just created Eve like he did Adam and all of the other creatures, but He didn’t. Instead, He created Eve from part of Adam. United, they become “one”, a single functional unit (a married couple). Sure, Adam is a man, and Eve is a woman, but they are both human. They both equally possess all the attributes of humanity.

It is the same with the Trinity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all equally possess the same divine nature and attributes. When they are united together as a functional unit, they are the Godhead, or simply God. 

“The Father and I are one.” ~John 10:30

God the Father is not Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not the Father. Just like Adam is not Eve and Eve is not Adam. Each member of the Trinity is separate, His own “person” but they unite into one.

Before we leave this subject, there’s one other important topic on the question of equality.

But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. ~1 Cor 11:3

Again, just like with marriage, or biblical marriage anyway, there is a hierarchy. A rank. God, then Christ, then husband, then wife. The Father and the Son are both divine, but God ranks higher than Christ. 

Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am. ~ John 14:28

Just because someone is greater than me, doesn’t mean they are a higher being. Is your boss greater than you? How about the President? People can be greater in rank, but that doesn’t change their nature or attributes, their humanness.  

Christ and the Father are equal in nature (John 10:30), though Jesus is functionally under the Father’s headship (1 Cor. 11:3). – Ron Rhodes from The Challenge of the Cults and New Religions

The Trinity. Equality with order. Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Am I messing with your head yet? Thoughts, comments, concerns, epiphanies?


13 thoughts on “Are the members of the Trinity co-equal?

  1. The trinity is something I’ve never tried too hard to wrap my head around. I’ve always figured it’s one of those things beyond our understanding so I just believe and don’t try to fathom. But at the same time, it’s good to “have a defense” so I’m enjoying these posts. 🙂


    1. You know it’s funny, I was the same way. But since I’m the kind of person that is motivated to understand why things work the way they do, this was the first theology class I wanted to take. I went through a very uncomfortable muddy period, but after working with the material (which is why I write blog posts) I have a new clarity. It gives me such a much great impression of God instead of the fuzzy nebulous “water has 3 forms” version I had before. Hardest but best class I’ve taken yet. And having JW’s on my doorstep brought to light the real-life implications of the importance of understanding, as much as we can, just who we worship.

      Thank you for always reading and commenting. It means a lot to me.


  2. Just because someone is greater than me, doesn’t mean they are a higher being. Is your boss greater than you? How about the President? People can be greater in rank, but that doesn’t change their nature or attributes, their humanness.

    Thanks, Lisa. This is the part that always tripped me up. How can we be equals and still have an order or authority with a superior and inferior position? Loved that verse in John where Jesus says “who is greater than me” but at the same time, I would never consider Jesus less than God the Father in anything.


    BY using a chain of constant pointer to constant pointer initializations, pointers can be unequal from each other, yet equal to each other in terms of the essential value they finally point to. Pointers are addresses themselves (ie. something which holds an address to a slot in computer memory, which is used to contain an EssentialValue) As with all valid logical comparisons, they have to be made with EssentialValue against EssentialValue or Address against Address. Eg. You don’t compare the “taste” of a Watermelon with the “colour” of an Apple, it’ll obviously be unequal (or equal by false positive/coincidence). So, with correct comparisons between FSH to G , you get an assertion of co-equality (Assertion 1 by EssentialValue) , yet different from one another (Assertion 2 by Address). There is a hierarchy of pointer declarations (nested pointer to pointer to pointer construct), but does that necessarily make once “bigger/more important” than the other? The idea of “more important” is moot here, since they are all co-equal anyway in terms of value, but yet different from each other. Of course, the presence of the hierachy does make it “seem” that Father is greater than Son than Holy Spirit, but logically, if comparing essential value, The assertion F* >= S** >= H*** is false, since they are all equal to the same value which is the constant G. Of course, G can exist without F,S, and H, and is not contingent on F,S,H existing, unlike S being contigent on F and H being contigent on S by virtue of declaration. Yet, the nature of constants means they are all initialized at the beginning of time, even if the assigned value is contingent on the other constant member existing through referencing. Of course, contingency doesn’t mean “greater” in terms of value…it’s just the nature of the declaration/referencing only.

    Many examples that you give (Husband+WIfe => Couple) doesn’t work because it still makes Couple contigent on having both a Husband and WIfe. (Husband||Wife is Human) does work on virtue of type assosiation only, since non-married people are also considered Humans. Also, there are many Humans and many Couples, not just one.


  4. So, you mentioned something in the article that is wrong. “It is the same with the Trinity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all equally possess the same divine nature and attributes. When they are united together as a functional unit, they are the Godhead, or simply God. ”

    Nope, not “when they are united…”, because you are implying contingency here. God’s existence isn’t contingent on the trinity existing at all, neither is God a compound product of 3 elements or declarations…. It’s just that mainline Christians view God through the 3 members of the trinity as a necessity to their belief ‘about’ God (not as a necessity to their belief ‘in’ God, which can always technically exist WITHOUT the trinity, only it’ll be a different kind of faith.).


  5. Incidentally, if all 3 pointers simply pointed directly to God (instead of using a nested hierachical approach), than Assertion 2 which says FSH are not equal to one another wouldn’t work . So, it’s fairly reasonable to say that Jesus only claimed to be God by referencing the Father, where the Father is considered to be God. In short, he did not claimed to be God directly without at least referencing another member of the trinity first. The same case it is with the Holy Spirit, who would reference Jesus. It is through this that allows all 3 members to be different from one another yet the same as well, depending on what assertion mode you are using. In fact, if Jesus and the Holy spirit pointed directly to &God without referecing another member of the Trinity, than all 3 would would be considered equal to one another as well, which would not allow Assertion 2 to pass.

    The idea that Jesus is only a prophet (as in some religions like Islam thay adheres to a much stricter/rigid monotheistic view) can stem from the notion that the comparing of Jesus as a member can never be equal to a monotheistic God which is transcendent, since one is a pointer, and the other is God, who can compare to Him? This is partly true since one member is a pointer and the other is a non-member transcendent value that has no beginning (and a data-type that can’t be represented in a physical world/computer program), how can equality be asserted between 2 different types? Does it mean nothing can be equal to God, even if God himself chooses to reveal members that are equal to him in terms of EssentialValue and will always remain to be so because such members are constant pointers that aren’t instantiated at runtime (ie. “they didn’t came into existence through the passage of time, but had existed before it? ). Does the presence of member representations of God as presented in Christianity belittle God and makes God less great? If a constant pointer points to a constant value, or points to another string of constant pointers which eventually points to an ultimate constant value…and they are all constants, isn’t it safe to make a plural inline statement that they can all be one and equal by EssentialValue? Or is that too blasphemous and a pointer should always be considered different (and NOT assumed to be the same), no matter what, even if the logical value comparisons match by pointer mediation, they should be considered just “prophets”? It’s not just a question of worldview and how one believes how one can validly compare things, but also whether one believes what God says if he did showed himself to be so (ie. equal to God in terms of essence and not just a prophet), or either that, the christian bible is corrupted and that God actually did not reveal himself through 3 members of the trinity.


  6. I like your logical and literal mind, Glidias. You’re right, there is no contingency. God is Trinity because that is how the Father wanted to be.

    I can see you’re arguing against the Trinity, but I’m not sure what you’re arguing for. To lessen Jesus and not make him not God’s son removes the work of salvation that he did on the cross.


  7. Worldview #1: (eg. Trinitarian)
    If something is equal to God in terms of essence by pointing to God through unchangable means, had existed before time with no beginning, and would never change where it points to on virtue of it being a constant declaration, can this thing be considered God by simply correctly comparing the essential value of things? Since God is a transcendant value, and not a transcendant member, so the transcendant value can only be derived from the transcendant member to correctly measure against God, making equality a suitable case if they match, and will always will?

    Worldview #2: (eg. Islam)
    Or do you believe that equality/value-comparison with a transcendant God can never be considered no matter what the circumstances, even within a transcendant plane?

    Worldview #3: (eg. Tritheism)
    Or that multiple member declarations in a trasncendant plane will always mean multiple deities?


  8. I’m obviously arguing for the trinity, but also can see why some other worldviews think otherwise, pointing out the possible notions behind them. It covers things like “How do we measure things in terms of essence, greatness, oneness, etc.?”. Some religions have the notion that to have God exist in a plural aspect in a transcendent realm (where multiple things can be equal to that one thing), will belittle that one thing, be idolatrous, etc). The trinitarian question is, “Why should it? Why can’t God show himself as something if he chooses to?”, without going to the extreme end of pantheism that assumes “all things are God”.


  9. If we divide Jesus’ existence into 3 life spans:
    1. Before Human
    2. Human
    3. Glorified

    Then in the second phase of his existence he was 100% human therefore could not share in the nature of the heavenly beings, even of angels.

    Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

    Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

    Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    The above verse shows he emptied himself – that is lost his God head position and became mortal. In this mortal state humans touched him, kissed him, spoke to him, beat him and eventually murdered him. As humans he also grew, lived, aged, hungered and he died! The Gospel records show us his human nature!

    God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit could not be of the same type of beings when Jesus took on the human form. Does the holy spirit have a sleeping time or wakeup time? a time to go to the loo? a time to feel hungry? etc. Did the holy spirit at any point have have flesh and blood?

    A husband and wife are both human. When they marry, they become “one”. This is not physical oneness but spiritual oneness. Husband and wives have an independent existence and continue to have an independent existence. They are encouraged to be united in mind and body. Husbands and wives are born at different timelines and die at different timelines. Chemistry, reproduction, love,affection define their oneness, but each one have an independent existence. Further they hope to take on an immortalised body in the age to come and be united with the divine.

    Within the Trinity, when Jesus was human he could only attain spiritual oneness to the Father by doing the Father’s will. He himself was found praying and pleaded to ‘his’ God, because he had lost his divinity. To be God and man at the same time was a Greeko-Roman concept with the myths of their Gods interacting with human in all sort of crazy ways.

    Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things,

    So when Jesus was human he became one with the human race in the physical sense but was one with God in the spiritual sense. We could also note he was one with his disciples in the bonds of unity, fellowship and friendship!

    Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect,

    ‘ in every respect ‘ == 100% human!

    ‘The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command.’
    If we think of the human Jesus – This obviously is not talking of his long hair and blue eyes! In the gospel again we do not see a Jesus living in un approachable light! But in the gospels is recorded a Jesus who teaches the Jews about their God! He is poor man who fasts, prays, teaches, argues, heals, loves, communicates, but is a mighty and enigmatic leader.

    Heb 1:4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
    I.e. Jesus was not a mortal angel or did he become and immortal angel!

    Jesus has a pre-existence and this is not spoken of much in the scriptures, he has a human existence (the gospels), he obtains divinity and is transferred from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible. So during this phase he share with the divine nature 100% and is no longer human! His humanity is now history!

    When Jesus says ‘who is greater than I am’ – If one God of the Trinity is Greater than another God of the Trinity then we get the subordination theology. Again it is a difficult concept
    All humans are equal but some or higher than others
    All Gods are equal but one is greater than the other two
    All angels are equal but some are greater than the others.

    The problem is neither Jesus, Mathew, Mark, John, Paul, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Holy Spirit coined the word ‘Trinity’. So we will endlessly try to understand the trinity without understanding it. For instance the law and the prophets never conceptualised a Binity though there are many mentions of YHWH and Spirit and also the prophets were neither confused about the two and they did not invent formulas to describe their relationship.


  10. When Jesus was on earth, he was fully God and fully man. Not just man. The verses you quote in Philippians talk about how Jesus limited himself to come to earth and be with us. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t divine and only became divine after He was resurrected, although I know that some non-Christian religious cults believe that way. It also doesn’t mean that he wasn’t God while He was here on earth.

    He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him [Christ] – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him [Christ]. He himself is before all things and *all things are held together in him.* He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from among the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in the Son and through him to reconcile all things to himself by making peace through the blood of his cross – through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven. ~1 Colossians 1:15-20

    If Jesus was no longer God when He came to earth, how would He be able to hold together all of Creation?


    1. Q How would He be able to hold together all of Creation?
      I guess this depends how we interpret … Let us try to answer the question by considering the gospel records of Jesus which is a record of Jesus in his human form

      1. Born through Mary and the Holy spirit. This is clearly a finite beginning of the human Jesus.
      The Catholic faith of course teaches Jesus was a fully developed God at the age of One and therefore they also pray to Infant Jesus. The divine was trapped in a limited crying baby!
      A gnostic belief was that the ‘Christ’ left the ‘body’ at the cross, i.e. Jesus was a God possessed human being! Etc.

      2. Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

      That is Jesus passed the teachings from GOD to man, thereby was authorised by God and acted as a mediator between God and man as Moses once did.

      3. The miracles he did are recorded thus:
      Act 2:22  “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
      Act 2:23  this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
      Act 2:24  God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

      “A MAN attested to you by God” is a fulfilment of how God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in Jesus.
      ‘God raised him up,’

      4. Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith

      Heb 12:1  Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
      Heb 12:2  looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

      His role in salvation has two important points
      a. He was the sacrifice
      b. But he was an acceptable sacrifice in a human form on account of his obedience, and therefore as a human becomes and example to other humans.

      The above verses from Hebrews shows that Jesus was himself human and someone who could see his OWN joy beyond the cross. As a fellow human he can become an example to us. He is is the second Adam as the first Adam failed but second Adam succeeded. The first Adam brought death while the second Adam brought LIFE. (resurrection)

      So Jesus’ life as a human goes beyond substitution but he is also an example for humans.

      5. Do Not Grow Weary – Jesus our supreme example
      Heb 12:3  Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
      Heb 12:4  In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

      6. Jesus claimed that his Father was in control and what ever control he had was from the Father. Examples:
      From the gospel of John:
      Joh 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
      A. Joh 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. 
      B. I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

      Again from John’s gospel itself:
      Joh 8:28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
      A.  I do nothing on my own authority,
      B. Father taught me.

      To summarise, From jesus’ own mouth:
      A. ” I do nothing on my own authority,”
      B.  “Father taught me.”
      C. ” I have given them the words that you gave me,
      D. “I can do nothing on my own. “
      E. “ I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

      Here we see a human Jesus behaving like any other human and giving all the glory to his God as his source. Therefore God was able to work through him i.e. Jesus reflected the will of his Father in his own human life,

      The human Jesus has an independent will and existence to his Father but was united with his Father in obedience and submission.

      7. Jesus taught us how we also could be united with the Father in purpose and unity:
      a. “Fear not little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) 
      b. Luk 11:13  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shally our heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
      c. “Let your light  so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
      d. Joh 15:9  As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
      e. Joh 15:8  Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
      f. Joh 14:31  But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. 

      Jesus declared plainly ‘I love the Father’ The first command of the scriptures and was appointed to teach the truth about his Father to the people. Jesus did not preach Trinity and the formula of the Gods that his followers were soon to invent.

      7. Luk 22:29  And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
      Jesus claims here that the Father appointed him.

      8. Mar 14:36  And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

      a. As Jesus calls his God ‘Abba Father’, we also do the same
      b. Jesus struggles as we do but is not overcome but overcomes that is comes victorious.
      c. Jesus’ will is divided from the Father’s will at the moment of great trial

      9. Mat 26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

      Jesus was himself not in control in the human form, only his Father was. Jesus himself struggled in the human form. Jesus could use prayer as his weapon! Though he had unlimited power being baptised at the age of 30 by the spirit without measure he was always careful to mention God/Father as his source in his interactions.

      10.  Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
      Again note how Jesus teaches about his father and doing his will.
      So Jesus manifested God by teaching us about his God and his Father.

      The gospels further testify that he was 100% human united to God in will and purpose but not in nature for he was simply human.
      1. Luke 2:52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. (God’s don’t grow, but Catholics accept the infant Jesus that is all knowing from the womb itself.)

      Jesus grew, if we reinterpret this that the human Jesus grew but the divine was already fully developed we get the confusion of a creature that is neither God nor man for that with is both God and man is neither God nor Man, These are theories developed to explain how people SHOULD believe in ‘trinity’.
      Since the word trinity is not found in the bible but that is taught as the anchor of faith so lot of contradictions and concussion emerges and most are told to accept it as a mystery or people come up with absurd explanations.

      2. Hebrews 5:8  Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
      How does a God “learn” Obedience?
      What did Jesus suffer from?
      Are there lessons for us – i.e. Jesus as our example?

      3. Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

      How goes a God get tempted/tried like us?
      The example again – yet without sin and pleasing to the Father

      Jesus was the ‘blameless’ lamb Not by nature but by action and deed!

      4. Luke 22:43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.

      This shows he was a weak human and fragile.
      A God who requires strengthening? How can he control anything if another heavenly angel has to support him.
      Do angels help God or humans?
      If Jesus created the angels and now the angel has to offer him support, then how are ’*all things are held together in him.* ’ – at this point in time he himself needs to be held.

      5. Luke 22:44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

      One God of the Trinity have Anguish? Humans pray to God but do the members of the Godhead pray to each other?
      Does the resurrected Jesus still do his daily prayers?
      Does the resurrected Jesus go off to mountain tops to pray to his Father?
      Does the resurrected fast for 40 days and 40 nights?

      6. Luk 7:9  When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
      ‘He marvelled’? Was he just pretending not to know but his divine nature revealing too him everything.

      7. Joh 12:27  Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
      A God whose soul is troubled? Jesus is “ omniscient & omnipotent” and he is full of anguish? Why is he so sad? This shows Jesus was human and shared OUR feelings! Yet he emerged victorious!

      8. Hebrews 5:7 tells us, “In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission”

      Jesus wanted to be saved from death? Why?
      He made loud cries? Why?
      Jesus was crying about his death? One God of the Trinity wanted to be saved from death?

      The gospel records his reverent submission to his God and Father, but the emphasis of churches is not this at all as it violates the theology established for more than a thousand years. So when children ask these questions, reasons and direct readings of gospels are suppressed and replaced with terms not used in the bible such as Trinity, Hypostatic union, etc. There are verses that teach us that he is divine and human and trinity is not the right formula to reconcile this.

      Hebrews actually indicates the human Jesus himself had ‘faith’ in God and therefore also taught about faith.
      Or is it that the God Jesus was just faking him humanity?

      9. Let us examine his prayer:
      Luke 22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

      He is trying to change the future he already knows is about to happen?
      This is surely not what we expect from a God?

      The human Jesus clearly possessed a will that sometimes came in conflict with his Father’s will. Here is the conflict between human and God! Now can Jesus be in control of the universe at this juncture of life when he himself is pleading for his own LIFE!
      This again shows he was 100% human not 100% God!

      10. Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

      A God forsaken by God?

      A simple and straight reading of the gospels present us with a Jesus whose nature and feelings were human.

      ‘If Jesus was no longer God when He came to earth, how would He be able to hold together all of Creation’
      He does Not in the human realm of his existence as on the cross he himself being peril of loosing his own life cried out to his God. It is the moment in history where the preacher and teacher of righteousness is humiliated by his enemies! Only his Father was in control of the situation while he himself was getting slaughtered!

      Clearly we are taught human Jesus.

      11. Lets us examine Jesus’ human heart:
      Joh 12:27  Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

      He knew he would die brutally and he was very ‘troubled’.
      A God whose SOUL in trouble? If God is so troubled like humans then what is to become of humans?

      Every record of the authors of the NT only bear witness that he was fully human for the 33 years of his existence!

      His most helpless state is seen in death. A core doctrine of Christianity is resurrection. Why do the Authors of NT make such a big deal about Resurrection of Christ’s’. It is generally believed one goes to heaven when they die. So what was the big deal for a God to die and going to heaven?

      Let us consider a few verses on the doctrine of resurrection:
      1. The prophecy: “‘You will not let your Holy One see corruption.’ (Acts 13:35 ESV)

      And this was finally fulfilled:
      “but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.”(Acts 13:37 ESV)

      i.e. human bodies decompose at death but his Father interfered with the curse of mortality and brought about the gift of eternal life through Jesus our Lord!

      From the Col verse you quoted: I.e.
      Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

      Why/How is he firstborn from the dead?
      Indicates he was the first of the human to be raised from dead to attain immortality and his followers will follow suit.

      Here is the witness of the resurrection in Acts (The earliest church understanding of his resurrection and the early emphasis. Resurrection as a doctrine itself is undermined by many church teachings):
      1. this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. ***God raised him up,*** loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.(Acts 2:23-24 ESV)
      2. Act 2:32 This Jesus ***God raised up***, and of that we all are witnesses.
      3. Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom ***God raised from the dead***. To this we are witnesses.
      4. Act 3:26 ***God, having raised up his servant,*** sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”
      5. Act 13:29 And when they had carried out all that was written of him, ***they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.***
      6. Act 13:30 But ***God raised him from the dead,***
      7. Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by A MAN whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by *** raising him from the dead. ***”
      8. 1Co 6:14 And ***God raised the Lord*** and will also raise us up by his power.

      Act 3:26 ***God, having raised up his servant,***
      Jesus – God’s servant? One God a servant of another?

      ***they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.***
      A dead Jesus!

      To end with
      Php 2:8  And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
      Php 2:9  Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
      Php 2:10  so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
      Php 2:11  and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

      a. Found in human form – i.e. 100% human
      b. Exhibited extreme obedience “:becoming obedient to the point of death,” i.e. what God expects from humans
      c. Therefore, God has highly exalted him

      The emphasis that he was human and was exalted by God, now if some non christian cults believe that they get these teachings from verses like the above. I guess it is a war of interpretations!

      If you compare the gospel record of Jesus and the Revelation account of Jesus there is a huge contrast – human v/s divine.

      To conclude,
      ‘in him all things hold together’ is the intention or the will of the Father that Christ should have Preeminence in all things (not literal during his mortal life) as we have seen from so many verses from above:

      “In him all things hold together and he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.”

      But the doctrine of trinity, its formulations and definitions are held very dearly even though Scripture contains neither the word Trinity, nor an expressly formulated doctrine of the Trinity. From the Old Testament the early church retained the conviction that God is one. But in the New testament a new God was born – but how can you have two Gods? SO is born the triad that emperor and church defended and surpassed any other idea as heretic.

      Again dividing Jesus’ existence into three phases we get
      a. Jesus as the Logos, pre-existent and divine, from its first words, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”[John 1:1]
      b. Jesus born to human mother. Contrast this is to Adam they son of God who had not mother but only a Father.
      c. The Jesus of Acts and Revelation a very different Jesus who is exalted and in control.

      ‘”For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form”,[Colossians 2:9]’
      This cannot be explained by the trinity formula. The trinity formula creates another God who is Father, son and Spirit but within this formula the Father is not the son and the son not the Father! None of this make sense because Jesus only taught of his God and his Father that Israelites were aware of. From the gospel records the verse ‘For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” has to be understood spiritually For instance. if we look at a more limited example of Moses even to Moses God revealed himself and was intimate with Moses, that is for most people they came to know about God only through Moses i.e. they believed in Moses and to reject Moses was to reject the Father for Moses only spoke of what he heard the Father spoke of. For instance the story of the Red sea crossing can be seen as God working miracles through the man Moses, i.e. God was manifested in Moses. But a Moses himself foretold Jesus would be a greater prophet that himself.


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